Jim Palmer is determined to help anyone who will listen to get deeper than the standard Christian experience of attending church and believing correct moral truths. His first book - Wide Open Spaces - became a journey and search for the divine beyond what was normal and Jim chronicles his experiences. The next step in the ‘evolution’ as he terms it is Divine Nobodies - his second book and the work we most discussed in this interview.

Jim Palmer is a passionate forthright guy and it comes across in this interview. More than anything, he describes the freedom he has to simply be his “dorky self.” Learn all about Palmer and his ministry in today’s HSP interview.

Matt Conner: What led you to write Divine Nobodies?

Jim Palmer: There have been many instances in my own journey with God when I wondered if I was going insane, but then God connected me with someone who understood and had traveled a similar path. This was an encouragement for me to keep putting on foot in front of the other. Many people know deep inside there’s more to God than what they are currently experiencing or have found in religion. I believe people know more than they think they do, but sometimes lack the confidence to follow the voice of God deep within.

Perhaps Divine Nobodies will be that encouragement for someone to listen and follow that voice, even if it leads into unfamiliar terrain. I also hope the book will open people’s eyes to recognize that God gives birth to his kingdom on earth through nobody types like me. A tire salesman, Waffle House waitress, handicapped girl and tattoo artist have been some of my spiritual guides. For many years I sat in church and secretly said to myself, “there’s got to be more to it than this?!” Now I know there is and that’s why I put my “shedding religion” story down on paper.

Matt: Why do you think that conversation is kept secret for so many people?

Jim: A part of it is illusionary groupthink. You look around at everyone else playing the game and you don’t hear others saying it and so you conclude it must be you. The illusion part is that people are actually thinking what you are, but no one wants to risk giving voice to it. Face it; it’s still the case that people who speak the truth, question things, or expose the insanity don’t pan out too well in religious circles. People are led to think that the sure sign of being a “good Christian” is unwavering confidence and absolute certainly in a set of beliefs and the organization that upholds and perpetuates them. Questioning either the beliefs or the system is like wearing a “I Hate Mickey Mouse” tee-shirt in the magic kingdom. Sorry, but these are the kinds of illustrations the father of a seven-year-old daughter uses.

Matt: So how does a person go from “There has to be more than this?” to “I was right! There is more!” What steps did you take?

Jim: The book coming out the end of this year Wide Open Spaces is largely about what I’m discovering and experiencing in terms of life in God beyond religion. It’s been a trip! I find most people already know the truth but have either let religion talk them out of it or have not yet started listening to that “still small voice” inside them. If Morpheus was around he would put it this way, “You’re here because you know something. What you know you can’t explain; but you feel it. You’ve felt it your entire life. There’s something wrong in the world. You don’t know what it is, but it’s there like a splinter in your mind driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me.” Anyone reading this right now has a “splinter” in their mind and probably several of them. This person knows something isn’t right. Something is amiss. It’s just not adding up. So, follow the white rabbit.

For me, receiving God’s unconditional acceptance was huge. If one has any doubt of God’s unconditional love and acceptance or links God’s loving favor to their performance, fear will force them to play it too safe to truly know God and they will be careful to stay within the lines drawn up by religion. It has always been God’s grace empowering me to put one foot in front of the other into the wide open spaces.

Matt: Can you tell us a bit more about the concepts you cover in Wide Open Spaces?

Jim: I’m finding the most important questions can’t really be answered on paper. I’ve discovered for myself the wisdom of Rilke’s words, “live your way into the answer.” Wide Open Spaces is about the answers I’ve started to live into. For example, I’m finding the Bible not so much a landing strip for determining fixed beliefs about God, but a launching pad releasing me into God’s reality. I’m also experiencing “church” beyond a set time and location, but everywhere, all the time, with everybody.

There have been some surprises along the way like discovering a spiritual navigation system inside me that always leads to truth, and realizing what I so quickly and conveniently pawn off on “the devil” is really my own carnal mind doing it’s best work. As Christ has become more central and significant in my journey with God, it has increasingly put me at odds with Christians (strange I know) and I share some of that struggle as well

Matt: For you, does it seem that the books you are writing flow together in a natural progression?

Jim: Yes, it feels that way. Each book seems to capture an aspect of my spiritual evolution or metamorphosis. Divine Nobodies tells of the people and circumstances God used to wake me up out of religion and Wide Open Spaces describes my first steps into freedom. Presently I’ve got three more books planned to write after this one. The writing of the books themselves has been an important part of the journey and has helped me crystallize certain things for myself. The people I’ve come in contact with as a result of my writing have also been a significant influence and encouragement in my growth. Let’s see, there’s Anne in Kalamazoo, Bob in Baltimore, Katy in California, Brian in New Zealand and many, many others.

Matt: What were you doing before writing? And how did you get into it?

Jim: I have a seminary background and spent a string of years in Christian ministry as a pastor. Following that, I got into inner city and international human rights work. Not long after our daughter was born I decided to stop traveling and work closer to home, which connected me with many of the “divine nobodies” I tell about in the first book. Going through the shedding religion process, I began journaling and blogging about what I was experiencing. A friend of mine in the publishing field asked me one day if I had ever considered writing a book about my journey, and that’s what got the ball rolling in terms of the books. Writing has always seemed a part of my life in some way or another. I still have journals I kept as a teenager.

Matt: Would you say that you always had a dream to write?

Jim: Not really. Even now I don’t think of myself as “a writer”; it’s just one of many aspects of my life. However, I have always dreamed of being a professional athlete or rock star; this may be the explanation for why I’ve had a lifelong fascination with Michael Jordan and Bono. If you’ve ever seen me play basketball or heard me sing, you’d know I have a ways to go. A few years ago God said to me, “I AM what you’re looking for.” God wanted me to know that I was never going to find it in human accomplishments or recognition. I enjoy writing and it’s part of my life in God. I have a sense right now God wants me to write, but it’s not always an easy thing.

Matt: What has been the most surprising thing to develop or happen directly because of your writing?

Jim: There seems to be a long list of things I have had the opportunity to do just from writing Divine Nobodies, which I wouldn’t of really expected ever doing. Speaking at a Crystal Cathedral event in California, appearing on TV talk shows, writing magazine articles, hosting podcast shows, leading an online workshop for abuse survivors, and adding a book I authored to the Ronald McDonald House library are some that first come to mind. However, I’d have to say the most surprising thing is that it has not stimulated a desire to be a “somebody”. I can’t describe the peace and joy of living in the freedom of not needing or wanting to be anything different or more than the dorky person I am and God loves.